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Ust-Ishim = pre-NO

有人分享没。。
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感谢Ren的这个重要资料:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/show ... human-pioneer/page3


also check:http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2653-Awesome-new-study-on-the-phylogeny-of-macrohaplogroup-K-Y-DNA


10-30-2014, 09:54 AM #24
lgmayka  lgmayka

G. Magoon just announced this on a mailing list:
---
I've just been taking a look at the chrY data for the ancient genome described here: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13810.html (data just became available today). The authors of the paper classify him as K(xLT), but that is based on an older tree. I've been looking at the results in the context of our tree and a preliminary look suggests that this will split the SNPs we have as defining "Hg-X" into two levels. In particular, his results suggest he is:
CTS11667+
Z4842/M2308+
Z12216-
Z4845/M2313-
Z12176-
Z4952/M2339-
F650/M2346-
---

On YFull's haplotree, then, this man from 45,000 years ago has some but not all of the SNPs associated with K-M2335, which is essentially pre-NO.
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人类之子全都是为死而生。
              --------《阙特勤碑》
10-30-2014, 10:14 AM
Shaikorth

Well that is interesting. Good thing enthusiasts are willing to go through this stuff. If Ust-Ishim's Y-DNA is closer to NO than to MSP then someone should find a precursor to the latter in ancient Siberia some day. Or perhaps there'll be a variant of the Karafet hypothesis with NO taking the northern route from Persia to South Siberia and pre-MSP going to SE-Asia through India.

++++++++++++++
10-30-2014, 01:59 PM
parasar

So per Magoon, Ust-Ishim is:

CTS11667+
Z4842/M2308+

Z12216-
Z4845/M2313-
Z12176-
Z4952/M2339-
F650/M2346-

HG03742, Indian Telugu is:

CTS11667+ (23208284 G>A)
Z4842, M2308+ (7690182 A>T)

Z12216+ (3909630 T>C)
Z4858, M2313+ (8674808 C>T)
Z12176+ (9978055 C>A)
Z4952, M2339+ (21797754 T>C )
F650, M2346+ (23617006 G>A)

M214-
P188-
P192-
P193-
P194-
P195-

So essentially we can think of the defining NO branch markers as CTS11667+ and Z4842/M2308+.

While Karafet did not investigate the NO side, in SE Asia/Oceania M214 was found everywhere but in Australia, and it would be interesting to see how many, if any, of the unresolved M526* found in Sumatra and Sulawesi are positive for these SNPs.

Table 1. Frequencies (%) of K-M526-derived Y-chromosome haplogroups in 7462 worldwide samples
Unresolved K-M526* 5/38 Sumatrans 1/177 Sulawesi
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journ ... 1.html#figure-title

Maju's depiction based on table above:
??????
人类之子全都是为死而生。
              --------《阙特勤碑》
10-30-2014, 05:17 PM
parasar

We have to consider these Siberian finds with caution and not ascribe to them a precursor status. Lack of DNA preservation in more tropical locales should not detract from the proposition that these people showing up in northern regions in the Upper Paleolithic came in from tropical regions. Their morphology show tropical adaptations indicating long periods of stay in tropical climates. In the pre-LGM timeframe, IMO, they are more likely dead-end lines.
http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/tem ... irtual/gerasimov/09

"Certain cranial features, including very narrow braincase, low and narrow face, marked prognathism (anterior protrusion of the midface), and very wide nose, are typical of tropical populations. The trait combination links the cranium with those of Papuans and Melanesians ... Bodily proportions of Early Upper Paleolithic people reveal southern characteristics as well. This also concerns the arm proportions of the Markina Gora individual, whose forearm was relatively long compared to the shoulder."

http://www.academia.edu/6822954/ ... ry_of_Human_Species
Homo sapiens are examined prior to the Last Glacial Maximum (24,000–22,000 years ago) they are virtually all of the morphology of a tropical group; long and slender limbs, only after the Last Glacial Maximum did Homo sapiens gain the shorter stouter morphology of what is seen in some modern populations (Hoffecker, 2004:95)
人类之子全都是为死而生。
              --------《阙特勤碑》
NO,P,到底起源于哪里,因为古DNA,问题越来越清晰。

任何找不到考古依据的推测,都不用当回事。
新技术方案尝试:低覆盖全基因组,最低成本深度解析父系源流,略有成效,大家一起摸索。微博@好奇云怪 QQ群:387100816。
10-30-2014, 05:39 PM
alan

That wouldnt entirely surprise me either. I just have a suspicion that they also arrived by the Siberia route. Maybe all of MNOP. I think when we get back to 45000 we must remember that some epic climatic downturns took place since then that would have made Siberia a hard spot to hold on in and surely many went south in the downturns in the 30000s and the LGM from 25000 especially. Its well known from archaeological dating that there was a big retraction from 25000BC years ago and Mal'ta is the latest dated site at that latitude until the end of the LGM. Some clearly made a shorter retreat to Altai but others may have headed further south.

10-30-2014, 05:44 PM
alan
A date around 30000 ya for EDAR is interesting in that about 27000 years ago the LGM turned places like central and eastern Siberia, Mongolia and northern China into very brutally cold places to live. Mal'at didnt have it but he was the very last dated guy from his middle upper palaeolithic culture - no other sites of this culture have been found after 27000ya.

10-30-2014, 06:08 PM
vettor
It still makes IJ and K1 group older and westward of this man ...............you need to fit these groups in the logic of age before origin of Uta makes sense
人类之子全都是为死而生。
              --------《阙特勤碑》
I'd like to expand this important finding as:

Ust-Ishim is:

--K-M9
-----K1(or LT)-L298/P326
-----K2-M526
--------K2a-CTS11667, Z4842/M2308
------------K2a1-****, ****, ****, **** Ust'-Ishim
------------K2a2-F650/M2346
-----------------K2a2a-Z12216, Z4858/M2313, Z12176, Z4952/M2339  HG03742, Indian Telugu
-----------------K2a2b(NO)-M214/Page39
--------K2b-M1221/P331/PF5911
------------MPS; etc.
4

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人类之子全都是为死而生。
              --------《阙特勤碑》
如此看来乌斯季-伊施姆古人更接近东亚是可以理解的,而NO确实有可能是走北线的了
三界无安,犹如火宅。众苦充满,甚可怖畏
                            --------《法华经》
是以法从心生。名因法立
                      ------------《宗镜录》
4萬5000年前的西伯利亞Ust'-Ishim古人,竟是Pre-NO。這樣NO祖先走北線到東亞,而MPS祖先經印度走南線到東南亞的可能性大增了。
F1.large.jpg
Y染色體:O3 M134+ M117- 應屬F444+
mtDNA:D5a2
7# Ryan
是不是按照这个树Ust'-Ishim是NO-M214的堂兄弟(分开五千年多的)?
四万年前的田原洞人,其父系又会是什么呢?
三界无安,犹如火宅。众苦充满,甚可怖畏
                            --------《法华经》
是以法从心生。名因法立
                      ------------《宗镜录》
4萬5000年前的西伯利亞Ust'-Ishim古人,竟是Pre-NO。這樣NO祖先走北線到東亞,而MPS祖先經印度走南線到東南亞的可能性大增了。
natsuya 发表于 2014-11-1 15:01
尤其是东南亚未分支的K几乎全部是MPS的近亲,而与NO远,而NO最近的近亲是印度特卢固中的一个小分支以及乌斯季-伊施姆古人
三界无安,犹如火宅。众苦充满,甚可怖畏
                            --------《法华经》
是以法从心生。名因法立
                      ------------《宗镜录》
另外还要指出一点的是,现存人类中N最早分支并不是发生在中国,欧洲有一个N的分支分离的时间超过了中国所有N的分支,但是复旦似乎并未予以重视
三界无安,犹如火宅。众苦充满,甚可怖畏
                            --------《法华经》
是以法从心生。名因法立
                      ------------《宗镜录》
有人分享没。。
ren 发表于 2014-11-1 02:09
很好,Pre-NO,下一步就等着论证O或Pre-O也是在“北线”从Pre-NO以及NO中分化出来的,不然就让国内一小帮自身既非N亦非NO*的无关攀亲人群白激动了
1)澳洲4万年前的蒙戈湖人非分子夏娃世系。直到一万年前的澳洲古人仍有未知种系mtdna存在。而澳洲人携带最高比例的丹尼索瓦人血统。
2)印度小石叶工业明显起源于近东,而其年代上限不过3.5万年,大体与印度独特的M相当。
3)石叶工业4.8万年前出现,大约4.5万年前分别扩张到欧洲和西伯利亚,其后陆续扩展到东亚。并没有证据支持石叶工业快速扩展到南亚地区。
4)田园洞有没有4万年,这个是最大问题,各方面的考古遗迹看来,该遗址更像与山顶洞同期,而不是早出2万年。
新技术方案尝试:低覆盖全基因组,最低成本深度解析父系源流,略有成效,大家一起摸索。微博@好奇云怪 QQ群:387100816。
14# snelheid 坚定不移支持O的南线起源~
14# snelheid 坚定不移支持O的南线起源~
扯远了。快速扩张根本不需要大动干戈动用一个“工业”,或者动用一个“军”一个“师”一个旅或者团之类,而只需要随便走漏一个“人”,活的,掉队的,性别为雄性,够了
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我对任何没有考古证据支持的假说都不感冒,想当然的东西,我现在也没兴趣听。
新技术方案尝试:低覆盖全基因组,最低成本深度解析父系源流,略有成效,大家一起摸索。微博@好奇云怪 QQ群:387100816。
14# snelheid 坚定不移支持O的南线起源~
bacerlona 发表于 2014-11-1 16:49
目前看来NO还是从南方扩散到东亚的可能性更大一些,只是问题在于这并非是确定之论,还是以证据为准,而不是“坚定不移支持”之类纯意志主义的东西。
但是即使NO是从南方扩散到东亚,不代表N本身是在中国分化的,相反N的分化地点可能相当北和西,未必在中国境内。至于O,最可能的分化地点还是在中国,虽然其祖先可能是从印度或西伯利亚而来,但O本身的分化地点肯定不会太靠北
考论NO起源,田原洞的父系至关重要,希望尽快出结果
三界无安,犹如火宅。众苦充满,甚可怖畏
                            --------《法华经》
是以法从心生。名因法立
                      ------------《宗镜录》
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