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(转)新石器、青铜时代乌克兰mtDNA含有东部欧亚成分

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发表于 2011-9-6 08:27 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 198401 于 2011-9-7 10:47 编辑

转自Dienekes的Blog。
乌克兰的新石器时代人群mtDNA大部分都是与西欧及近东共享,但是有6个是属于单倍群C。

HVSI序列,以及部分编码区,其中14个样本,取自Neolithic Dnieper-Donetz文化(5th—4th millennium BC),3个样本取自Bronze Age Kurgan burials。

其中 Neolithic Dnieper-Donetz有3个, Bronze Age Kurgan burials的全部属于 单倍群C。


Neolithic Dnieper-Donetz与 Bronze Age Kurgan burials接近且靠近始祖型。

这是一篇学位论文,到August 04, 2012才可以下载到。

http://dna-forums.org/index.php? ... an-mtdna-in-europe/
I contacted Dr Alexey G. Nikitin, the First Advisor on this thesis. He clarified that the sublineages of the C haplogroup found were C* and C4a.sahaliyan 发表于 2011-9-7 09:46

East Eurasian mtDNA in Ukrainian Neolithic and Bronze Age
Jean M links to a Master's thesis, which discovered the following:
While most of our samples possessed mtDNA haplotypes that can be linked to European and Near Eastern populations, three Neolithic and all three Bronze Age individuals belonged to mtDNA haplogroup C, which is common in East Eurasian, particularly South Siberian, populations but exceedingly rare in Europe. Phylogeographic network analysis revealed that our samples are located at or near the ancestral node for haplogroup C and that derived lineages branching from the Neolithic samples were present in Bronze Age Kurgans. In light of the numerous examples of mtDNA admixture that can be found in both Europe and Siberia, it appears that the NPR and South Siberia are located at opposite ends of a genetic continuum established at some point prior to the Neolithic. This migration corridor may have been established during the Last Glacial Maximum due to extensive glaciation in northern Eurasia and a consequent aridization of western Asia. This implies the demographic history for the European gene pool is more complex than previously considered and also has significant implications regarding the origin of Kurgan populations.
Unfortunately the thesis is under embargo until next year. We'll have to wait and see whether this research stands up to closer scrutiny by ancient DNA experts. The detection of a haplogroup that is quite rare in Europe today makes it difficult to envision a scenario in which contamination may have produced a spurious result, however.

The Dnieper-Donets population was described as robust Europeoid by Soviet anthropologists as was the Andronovo/Afanasevo tradition further east. It is interesting that Mongoloid admixture has been detected in both groups. I would not have guessed that this would have extended that far west and south. It seems that M. G. Levin may have been right when he stated that the Mongoloid elements penetrated far into eastern Europe.

It will certainly be interesting to discover how the Mongoloid component in the gene pool of the Northern Pontic steppe became diluted until the present. James Mallory argued at great length in a recent talk about the impossibility of Balkan influences on the steppe. I would bet that there were influences from the both the Balkans and the Caucasus, as well as the Transcaspian arrival of Iranic speakers in the 1st millennium BC, ultimately from their Bactria-Margiana source.


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发表于 2011-9-6 08:44 | 显示全部楼层
这个有点意外,新石器时代的东欧,C就已经是较普遍的母系群了。
发表于 2011-9-6 09:51 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2011-9-6 10:00 编辑
是否可能C根本不是东南亚起源,而是走北线的?我现在对某些学派的“一切都是东南亚”的假说深表怀疑
sahaliyan 发表于 2011-9-6 08:37

别激动!先拎拎清爽好哇?这里说的是mt-C,mt的C是M8的下游,麻烦你到中亚去找一下M8好哇?
对了,要找M8*才算,象M8a这样的分支类型都不算。
发表于 2011-9-6 10:06 | 显示全部楼层
C是从北亚过去的
发表于 2011-9-6 10:10 | 显示全部楼层
转自Dienekes的Blog。
乌克兰的新石器时代人群
198401 发表于 2011-9-6 08:27


不知这个新石器时代的年代是什么,这个很重要!
可能与Y染色体R的起源有关。http://www.ranhaer.com/viewthread.php?tid=15777&extra=&page=1
发表于 2011-9-6 10:21 | 显示全部楼层
别激动!先拎拎清爽好哇?这里说的是mt-C,mt的C是M8的下游,麻烦你到中亚去找一下M8好哇?
对了,要找M8*才算,象M8a这样的分支类型都不算。
baiyueren 发表于 2011-9-6 09:51


始祖型派又来了。
发表于 2011-9-6 10:41 | 显示全部楼层
C是从北亚过去的
jinyufei 发表于 2011-9-6 10:06

北亚的C又是从哪儿去的呢?要么是从南面——东亚,要么从西面——中亚。北面和东面都是海,没戏!
发表于 2011-9-6 10:50 | 显示全部楼层
Q的原配母系是X好哇?
发表于 2011-9-6 11:09 | 显示全部楼层
但是东亚X很少,根本无法与Q的比例相佩,不仅东亚,连西伯利亚也是如此
sahaliyan 发表于 2011-9-6 10:53

这不奇怪啊,这是典型的父系取代现象。
一个欧洲男人娶了亚洲女人,他后代的Y和mt怎么可能相配呢?
 楼主| 发表于 2011-9-6 11:10 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 198401 于 2011-9-6 11:11 编辑

文章说是接近始祖类型,与青铜时代Kurgans(斯基太人 Y R1a)样本接近。
near the ancestral node for haplogroup C and that derived lineages branching from the Neolithic samples were present in Bronze Age Kurgans.
青铜时代应该是2000BC至800BC
发表于 2011-9-6 11:14 | 显示全部楼层
文章说是接近始祖类型,与青铜时代Kurgans(斯基太人 Y R1a)样本接近。
near the ancestral node for haplogroup C and that derived lineages branching from the Neolithic samples were present in Bronze Age  ...
198401 发表于 2011-9-6 11:10

还是讲不通啊?文中说测过全序吗,还是只测了高变区?
就算这个C是真正的始祖型,也还是M8的下游分支啊?
 楼主| 发表于 2011-9-6 11:37 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 198401 于 2011-9-6 11:49 编辑

16# baiyueren
HVSI序列,以及部分编码区,一共14个样本,取自Neolithic Dnieper-Donetz文化(5th—4th millennium BC),3个样本取自Bronze Age Kurgan burials

这是一篇学位论文,到August 04, 2012才可以下载到。
发表于 2011-9-6 11:45 | 显示全部楼层
15# sahaliyan
呵呵!我觉得拉上Y-Q并不能帮你解决C的来源问题。
有文献显示Q最早起源于西亚土耳其一带,mt-X也是。所以说它们两个原配是没有问题的。要证明C是Q的原配还是需要解决最初起源地的问题,这样就终点又回到起点上了。
发表于 2011-9-6 12:11 | 显示全部楼层
北亚的C又是从哪儿去的呢?
baiyueren 发表于 2011-9-6 10:41


我是这么考虑的:
MT的C是北亚或东亚起源的,祖先是Y染色体的C和MT的M。
后来MT的C“嫁”到了西方。
发表于 2011-9-6 12:18 | 显示全部楼层
Q的原配母系是X好哇?
baiyueren 发表于 2011-9-6 10:50


我是这么考虑的:
Y染色体Q的原配MT是B。当Q向北美迁徙途中经过东北亚时,娶了东北亚的MT-A、C、D、X等。
发表于 2011-9-6 14:20 | 显示全部楼层
说到Y-Q的原配,mt-U也是一个不容忽视的选择。
发表于 2011-9-6 14:50 | 显示全部楼层
我认为Q的最可能起源地是中亚,不可能在西亚,中亚尤其是维族存在各种Q的支系,如Q1a1,Q1a2,Q1a3,Q1b等,而在西亚,基本没有Q1a1,很少有Q1a3(有也是突厥-蒙古人带过来的),而在东亚,则Q1a2和Q1b比较缺乏
sahaliyan 发表于 2011-9-6 14:44

不要说西亚没有Q1a1,就是在中亚五国也没有Q1a1,所以我认为Q1a1来源于中国,维族的Q1a1应该是后期汉人的融入。
不过关于Q的起源,我也赞成中亚起源,毕竟Q的支系在中亚最多。
发表于 2011-9-6 15:37 | 显示全部楼层
Q的起源地还是应当主要考虑其兄弟支系P*和R可能的诞生地,中亚Q的富集,可能与人群的迁徙叠加有关。遗传多态性高,可能是扩散中心,也可能是人群迁徙的汇集地。

Q1a1共祖年代只有万年前后,如果我们假设其进过几千的积累,保证其族群具备一定的人口规模,那么,扩张年代可能只有几千年,目前的数据来看,扩张中心更似在西北地区。
发表于 2011-9-6 16:38 | 显示全部楼层
中亚和东欧的Q,都是从北亚西迁过去的。
第一次,随匈奴人西迁。
第二次,随突厥人西迁。
第三次,随蒙古人西迁。
否则,历史上的这三次大西迁,都与基因不相干么?
发表于 2011-9-6 17:55 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 天天向上 于 2011-9-6 18:06 编辑

q根本就不是什么西欧亚,R也不是

mt-B是东南亚多样性最高
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